Indie Horror Author Alex Grass on Drek & Infernal Tramps | Original Geek | S1E35

Author Alex Grass joins us in the basement for the debut of Artists Alley — and he brought the whole shelf with him: Black River Lantern, Influencer, Drek, A Boy's Hammer, and the brand-new short story collection Infernal Tramps (out July 15).

We start by trying to define paranormal horror and immediately discover the category might swallow the whole genre. Alex traces horror's origins back to the late Victorian collision of scientific progress and spiritualism — M.R. James, Sheridan Le Fanu, ghost stories — and argues that in the beginning, essentially all horror was paranormal.

Then things get personal. Alex talks about the three months in rehab that split his life into before and after, and the strange fact that the healthier he got, the grayer and more twisted his fiction became. Infernal Tramps is the result: a museum guard whose single bad impulse unravels an entire city, a plastic surgery story that ends somewhere no one sees coming, and a Goodreads reader's perfect description — Twilight Zone meets Hostel.

Our Random Review puts Drek under the D20 with the author present, and Steve rolls a natural 1. The category: "Narrative Fog" — the accusation that the book's opening is so deliberately disorienting that readers put it down. Jeff, who read the thing in a day, mounts a hard disagreement built entirely around one image: a coroner with the Boogeyman on his gurney.

Geek Court takes the case that splits the genre: does horror need humor? Alex builds his argument on Chris Rock and a South Park line about how comedy rots — and how horror, given enough distance from the tragedy underneath it, can rot right back into comedy. Steve, a working stand-up, argues the banana peel and the scream live on the same continuum. Jeff counters with Hereditary and Midsommar. The verdict is not what he wanted.

We close on Geek Evolution and a rant we didn't script: the gatekeepers are gone, the access is a genuine renaissance, and that's exactly the problem. The noise is deafening, and the only thing that cuts through it is work you'd be proud of even if nobody ever finds it.

Also: bourbon as a bridge between broken people, why nobody should ever write an info dump, the horror movies that got to us first, and a story about Goodreads that we are not going to summarize here.

FIND ALEX GRASS
InfernalTramps.com | Instagram: @infernaltramps | Amazon & Goodreads
Please rate and review his books — for an indie author, that's the whole game.

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Transcript

Alex Grass (00:00)
you know, all of a sudden like a woman who has a plastic surgery addiction could be getting a sentient butt implant, you know, just like there's there's just not a way for you to figure out what's going to happen next, you know?

Steve (00:15)
Please tell

me that's actually one of the stories. I cannot I can't wait to read that one. That sounds phenomenal. I love it.

Alex Grass (00:17)
That is one of the stories. It's called the EP implant.

Steve (00:30)
All right, welcome to Original Geek. This is the All Fandom Podcast for sci fi, fantasy comics, and every pop culture obsession that built us. Whether you're Gen X, millennial, or just Geek Curious, welcome to the basement. Hi, I'm Steve Scarfo.

Jeff Shaw (00:42)
And I'm Jeff Shaw, and it'll be your fractured timeline for today's desperate attempt to piece together what's real as we explore paranormal horror with paranormal horror author Alex Grass. Welcome. Welcome to the basement.

Alex Grass (00:56)
Hey guys! I'm happy to be here.

Steve (00:56)
Welcome, Alex. Huh? Yeah, welcome to

Jeff's not in an actual basement. I'm in an actual basement. 'Cause I've I live this for real. This is how I go.

Alex Grass (01:02)
All right.

I I

You're the method actor of the

Steve (01:14)
yeah.

Jeff Shaw (01:15)
He's gotta get in. That's right.

Steve (01:16)
And my

Alex Grass (01:17)
Yeah.

Steve (01:17)
wife

won't

let me upstairs with my gear. So there's part of it. That's part of it too. So we're gonna we're gonna talk all things, paranormal humor. Humor? Look at that. I went right into poor well, we'll do humor too. Paranormal humor and horror, but mostly horror, with Alex. But first we're gonna jump into our basement brief.

Jeff Shaw (01:45)
You know, it's funny, I had thought that paranormal horror would be really distinct. And then as I thought about it, I'm thinking so much horror is has a paranormal component to it. So I feel like that might even be too wide. I know what do you think, Alex? Do you consider yourself

Alex Grass (02:03)
I

I think that, you know, it's interesting that there's so much j like sort of like a taxonomy of genre these days, so that people can find like a v a very granular place inside of like already what's broken down into granules. But I think that like sort of the the origins of horror are, you know

sort of coincide with like the late Victorian era, the flourishing of spiritualism, you know, sort of like civilization reckoning with on the one hand the this tremendous scientific prog progress while at the same time wanting to like keep some of like the appurtenances of let's say religious practice and I think that that form spiritualism and that that man manifested in art in ghost stories. So you know, in the beginning

Jeff Shaw (02:54)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (02:57)
There's there's basically there's there's only paranormal horror. I mean i y it's you have MR James, Ghost Stories, Sheridan Lefanoe, you know, and it's not until, you know, the twentieth century really that you start having stuff that's like not exclusively paranormal. I you know, I think some of it is y like I mean you had the Penny Dreadfuls, so that's not entirely true, right?

Jeff Shaw (03:03)
Yeah.

Steve (03:25)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Grass (03:26)
You know, you had stories about like about crime, but l horror, like the real origin of horror, there's there's paranormal and then there's, you know, like I guess you could argue that as much gothic was a part of it, you know, like the Castle of A Toronto. but I d I don't know, like t i pick pick pick a a franchise and there's a paranormal element, you know?

Steve (03:53)
Right.

Jeff Shaw (03:53)
Yeah.

But and I that's what I realized, like we could just just call this a horror episode, Steve.

Steve (03:59)
We could have.

So before we dig in too deep, I do want to give a little background. So one of the things we want to do, and we'll talk a lot more about the the works that you've you've produced, but I wanna let folks know who you are. So we know who you are 'cause we've been chatting. we've read some of your stuff, but Alex is a indie horror dark fantasy author. I'm reading. I apologize. I did some research. you you're from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Alex Grass (04:24)
That's all right.

Steve (04:29)
And you've lived pretty much all over the world, but right now you're in Brooklyn, is that right?

Alex Grass (04:32)
That's right. I've but I've I've been remanded to Brooklyn in into in into the custody o of my wife's extended family.

Steve (04:35)
Remanded. I love that.

That's

that is a place we all get remanded eventually, I think, is what happens. We don't really have a lot of choice. you were in a thrash metal band. Is that true? That's awesome. Shock syndrome.

Alex Grass (04:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Shock syndrome and then

and then another one called Nishama is God. It

Steve (05:00)
Now,

did you do again, I I did my internet research, but I never try quite trust it. you were in law school?

Alex Grass (05:09)
Yeah. Yeah. I was I was a a constitutional law student fellow actually. Yeah. Yeah. I I had I had gone in intending fully to be like a trial lawyer

Steve (05:16)
my goodness.

Alex Grass (05:22)
I'm like, yeah, let's do let's get this money, you know? Let's let's rent seek. Let's leech off the underbelly of those most economically desperate in society. And then I went in and and like we started taking, you know, like it's one of the first classes you have to take constitutional law. I'm like, wow, this is really interesting. I could kinda like and then I ended up at a public interest constitutional law firm in DC in my first summer.

Steve (05:25)
Yeah.

That's wild.

Jeff Shaw (05:49)
Wow.

Steve (05:49)
we might have to have a whole other podcast with you on for different purposes that we won't jump into right now. but we also wanna you so we have you have four books out right now. Black River Lantern, which Jeff has read. I'm about halfway through, Influencer, which is a novella, Drek, which Jeff apparently can't get enough of, which is awesome. And then A Boy's Hammer. Those are the four you have out right now.

Jeff Shaw (05:52)
Ha ha ha.

Steve (06:14)
But what we want to let folks know about mostly is coming up is your new store short story collection called Infernal Tramps. we're recording late in June. This will come out in a couple weeks, so it should coincide pretty much with the July fifteenth release.

Alex Grass (06:30)
Yeah, well that's that's when they All right.

Jeff Shaw (06:31)
We're gonna give it the geek bump.

Steve (06:33)
Well yeah.

It's a little bump, but it's gonna be there.

Jeff Shaw (06:37)
Artist Alley is a new segment, but we've we've we do want to have more artists on the podcast. So if you're an artist, you want to feature your your work on our podcast, reach out. and where Alex is our maiden voyage. So yes.

Steve (06:55)
Yes. There was an there's another way you could have put that and I'm glad you didn't for the record.

Alex Grass (06:56)
I'm the maiden!

Steve (07:03)
so so tell us a little bit about infernal tramps. Is it the same sort of genre? Are you going in new directions?

Alex Grass (07:10)
It's pretty d it's pretty different. I would say it's if anything, it's like Drek, you know, it's just at at bottom it's you don't know what's going to happen. Not in the sense of a thriller, but like, you know, all of a sudden i like a woman who has a plastic surgery addiction could be getting a sentient butt implant, you know, just like there's there's just not a way for you to figure out what's going to happen next, you know?

Steve (07:38)
Please tell

me that's actually one of the stories. I cannot I can't wait to read that one. That sounds ph phenomenal. I love it.

Alex Grass (07:40)
That is one of the stories. It's called the EP implant.

Yeah.

A and you know, it's kind of like I I'd gone through this whole you know you take your knocks, life tumbles you, you know, you tumble with it or you tumble against it. And I ended up being a rehab for three months, and that was really the part the watershed that broke my life into different segments, right? That's when I started writing horror. And the interesting thing is I found that as I got

psychologically healthier the more twisted the writing became you know and so so like in the earlier books you know you you there's always some sort of resolution where the the hero kind of wins you know somewhat right but in the in these short stories in Infernal Tramps it's very it's like so gray it's like slate gray it's like the gray they sell to everybody at Home Depot

that you just you put in every single room and office. It's just it's the it's the middle. And I I think like one of the best ways I heard someone describe it is a reader on Goodreads said, think Twilight Zone meets hostile. And it yeah, and I I loved it. I I love it was great. Cause you know and I I'm so unaware of this stuff. Like so for instance you have this

Steve (09:01)
wow.

Alex Grass (09:13)
Obviously that story, EPM plant, is a body horror story. And you know, the the Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But but but subgenre, but you know, it's body horror, it's like the supernatural is elementally paranormal, I think. You know, and there are probably people who disagree with that, but supernatural is elementally paranormal, right? And body horror

Jeff Shaw (09:19)
There's another genre, body horror. Yes. Sub genre.

Alex Grass (09:40)
you know, in in its more extreme manifestations is inherently supernatural, you know, if you think of like Pinhead and Hellraiser, or, you know, you you think about like this this well, I guess the substance would be sci sci-fi horror, actually. But you know, I think that like for the transformations in Body Heart to take place, there has to be something that is outside the scope of, you know, the normal reality.

Jeff Shaw (10:10)
Right.

Alex Grass (10:10)
And

so there's a lot of that in this book, but there's also a lot of like f you know, funny stuff. I I'm terrible at prostituting myself. I try it, you know. I

Jeff Shaw (10:23)
That's okay. what I'll

Steve (10:23)
Ha ha ha ha That's

Jeff Shaw (10:24)
but I'll

Steve (10:25)
our job. We're here to pimp you up.

Jeff Shaw (10:25)
I'll ask you a couple of of questions 'cause one thing I love about horror and I used to be a public school teacher. I taught film studies and I taught horror and you have to of course be careful as you're teaching horror to to but one one the what I wanted them to take away from it was that horror is really good at holding a mirror up to society and I know we don't give it the same weight that we give to drama or what have you. It's

Alex Grass (10:38)
goodness.

Jeff Shaw (10:52)
Often not up for the Oscars. It's not getting the awards or the recognition. But one thing I loved about Black River Lantern and very, very, very much Dretch, Drek was that I felt like there's so much commentary about our society today. And yes, it takes place in a far-flung future and a different reality. but man, it's about today. It's about us. Are you doing that?

as well with these with these stories is there and I can kind of see that plastic surgery gone awry, right? So

Alex Grass (11:28)
Yeah, a ha a hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Steve (11:30)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Grass (11:32)
Yeah. I mean y you know, you have you have like so I I I think of like these are

like marquee moral issues, right? This is the this is the big the banner stuff. Yeah, you have to worry that, you know, like a living a good life requires you to contemplate at a point, you know? Unless unless you live a friction l frictionless life. And in which case y I don't think you could get really get a handle on morality anyway, you know? Be because y you need a little bit of the friction to to be able to, you know, understand like w where you can be damaged by going one way or the other.

In in terms of good behavior or bad behavior, let's generally categorize it as morality. But I I I think that in the story you have like for in Infernal Tramps, you have a story where a security guard at an art museum has like this sort of like inkling of an idea, just this sort of he's sort of nudged by something inside of him in to steal

an artifact. And then that totally unravels the entire city. But you just sort of see like the very common behavior of trying to cover up lies with more lies and trying to, you know, patch up disaster with with more disaster. And you know, so you have something like that. You have, you know, the the plastic surgery story, you know,

the tremendous pressure to achieve some sort of aesthetic perfection or some sort of ideal, but it's it's divorced completely from, you know, like like higher aspirations of beauty. It has nothing to do with symmetry. It has nothing to do with, you know, if you want to get mystical, the golden ratio or anything like that. You know, it's just sort of like arbitrary you know, it's it it it it it it's sugar water is what it is.

Jeff Shaw (13:30)
Yeah.

Steve (13:31)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Grass (13:32)
i

y you know there's no if there's no substance and it's really sweet and if you have a little bit of it you want to have a a lot more and and then and then you also deal with you know for me it's very personal but like you did deal with alcoholism what does it look like to isolate yourself and to know that you're destroying your life and alienating the people around you and to still

Jeff Shaw (13:41)
Nice.

Steve (13:41)
I like

that. I like that analogy.

Alex Grass (13:58)
do it despite the awareness because you know like the awareness d is not the cure for for anything. You y you yeah you have to work. It doesn't matter that you know that you're a shithel. You have to be less of a shitty.

Steve (14:05)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Shaw (14:11)
All right.

Now, yeah, speaking of the drinking black l river lantern, so Steve you can pipe in, there's a lot of bourbon being consumed. And I I'm very impressionable. Like when I'm watching a T V show there someone's having their after dinner, you know, bourbon. I'm like, I gotta go get some bourbon. Steve, what did you what did you read this? You're like, I think I need some bourbon while I'm reading this.

Steve (14:19)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (14:31)
Yeah.

Steve (14:36)
I will say, I had to drive my daughter to a gymnastics event. So as much as I wanted some bourbon, I did not in fact have some bourbon and then drive my daughter. I did resist. I do I do love the there's something about that. the element of bringing that in of of alcohol in the story. I it you know, it does it speaks to something everybody uses. It's always

Jeff Shaw (14:46)
You resisted?

Alex Grass (14:45)
Ha ha ha.

Steve (15:05)
At least as far as I've gotten through, but especially for Morivikos and for Eddie, there's sort of a it's a bridge for them and it's it's a way for them to connect. And he does it again with Lex later they connect over the alcohol and it's it sort of does speak to the way we use alcohol in society today, right? It's not just it doesn't felt it doesn't feel like you just put it in there, let's talk about bre you used it to a purpose and maybe I'm giving you some

some motivation you didn't have, but that's the way it felt, that there was a connection in there. but

Alex Grass (15:41)
No, I mean I think

it's it's something that comes out very it's you know, it comes out in the narrative easily because it's true, you know. alcohol patches ho holes in you and one of the one of the holes that patches up is social anxiety. You know? You you have a drink and all of a sudden you can talk to people.

Jeff Shaw (15:59)
Yeah, and what I like that you do when someone has like a vice like that that works until it doesn't. And then you just keep consuming, but it doesn't quite ever get back to where you were. And so I thought that with what's the main character in Black River Lantern? Eddie. Yeah, so like at first it works for Eddie's. So for those listeners, Black River Lantern

Steve (16:19)
Eddie.

Alex Grass (16:19)
Eddie.

Jeff Shaw (16:27)
We w we should give it a a quick a quick plug as well. It's a it's an excellent read. Alex, you you go ahead. I don't know if you can do a quick plug for it. 'Cause I'm all I'll I got Drek in here, so

Steve (16:37)
Ha ha

Alex Grass (16:38)
But it's Black River Lantern No problem, no problem. Black

Steve (16:42)
He's so

focused.

Alex Grass (16:43)
R Black River Lantern is the saga of the Meravikos family who run a seasonal carnival. The father, Papa Meravikos, is a very, very evil man.

Who's also excellent at exercising his evil through through the the power he wields. And and Eddie is sort of like Eddie was modeled after Prince Mishkit in the idiot by Dostoevsky, just sort of like a simple s yeah, simple, sweet character, you know, sort of battered by by the winds of fate. And this the the story is essentially what happens when you have an incredible supernatural.

Jeff Shaw (17:10)
Really?

Alex Grass (17:24)
natural paranormal power in in the case of the antagonist Eddie Meravikos and it's misdirected until it grows its you know like power will exercise its own prerogatives, you know. You know you can you can seek to exercise power but it it is it's it's an invisible animal itself and it it has its own hunger.

You know? And and that's that's what happens with you know, ultimately it it blows up in many people's faces in the book. Yeah. Yes that's all right.

Jeff Shaw (17:57)
Literally. sorry, spoiler.

Steve (17:57)
That's awesome. All

right. So as much as I think we could probably talk all night, it sounds like Jeff is chomping at the bit to get to to talking about Drek. so we are gonna drop into our random review. Now this also is our first random review of a of a novel. typically we're talking you know, a TV show or movie. so let's jump in.

Alright, welcome to the original Geek Random Review. We set the topic, the dice set the direction, we know what we're reviewing, just not how.

Jeff Shaw (18:39)
And today we actually have a book that we're doing a random review for Dreck and we have the author, Alex Grass, with us to do this random review. So hopefully Steve will not roll a one where we have yeah, which can be a critical miss. And I don't thank here we go.

Steve (18:51)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (18:55)
However however you roll, I'm trashing this thing.

Steve (19:00)
So

we should have we we did talk to Alex a little bit before. we should have told you so we also cut this segment out, so we'll there'll be some more of this exp you know expository kind of stuff. so if you've never seen one of our random reviews, then we have a list of twelve items that are AI generated. We use the old fancy 20-sided dice.

And I will roll for both Alex and for Jeff today. they're gonna be reviewing the novel Drek, which was your third book. Is that correct?

Alex Grass (19:32)
g I think it was in in publishing order, yeah.

Steve (19:35)
Publishing order it was third. So it doesn't matter, go read all. But

Jeff Shaw (19:36)
Yeah. And

and Drek, because I realize a lot of when we do these random reviews, they're things that are popular. And not that Drek isn't. Drek's popular or it should be. Anyway, but things that like we don't need to tell them what Star Wars is. so Drek is this a great novel. It if you like post apocalyptic stories like I do, you're gonna love this. you know, some some titles that leap out to me that that I like.

Steve (19:44)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (19:45)
Ha ha ha.

Jeff Shaw (20:05)
Resonating with me. Twelve monkeys. good luck, have fun, don't die. Brazil from you know, long time ago. and they're like just you know that's the most absurd version of the future, and yet, and yet believable at the same time. Totally believable. All right. So that's my

Alex Grass (20:26)
Yeah. I appreciate

Steve (20:27)
Yes. All right.

Alex Grass (20:29)
my wife would love that you b you brought up Terry Gilliam. She would love that. She b that's high praise. That's one of her favorite movies, Brazil.

Jeff Shaw (20:33)
Nice.

Steve (20:33)
Ha ha ha ha

That's awesome.

All right. So here we go. we're gonna have guests go first, Jeff, okay? All right. Alex? And I realize you don't have the list in front of you. We both have the list, so I'm gonna read it for you. you know what I did?

Jeff Shaw (20:43)
Yeah.

Steve (20:51)
I rolled a one.

Jeff Shaw (20:52)
No way.

Alex Grass (20:53)
Ha ha

ha.

Steve (20:54)
We gotta do it. Alright. So it's critical fail. the book is not just my ability to roll a dice. I don't know if you were a D guy at all, Alex, but for me this is just par for the course. the my longest running character has probably got the most natural ones in history to his credit and many character deaths from our own party. So anyway, this is not a f not a

Jeff Shaw (20:56)
Okay.

Alex Grass (21:17)
Ha ha ha.

Jeff Shaw (21:22)
And also

AI came up with this, so Well Google Gemini, how dare you.

Steve (21:24)
Yeah, so this is not a real fail.

We just use that, we use the scale because it's more fun. so the it's called the narrative fog is the type the intensely confusing, dreamlike opening act. Now this is for Drag. Stuck in the dark. The book drops the reader directly into a hyper dense, surreal post-war reality without a map. Early on the world building is so intentionally baffling and vague that some viewers threw the book down before the actual plot kicked in.

Alex Grass (21:28)
Yeah.

Steve (21:55)
So

Again, no idea that that's what it said.

Jeff Shaw (21:59)
I love that Alex

got a kick out of that.

Alex Grass (22:00)
my that's so great.

Steve (22:02)
So

again, no idea what was on the the screen until I just rolled it. I I li I quite honestly don't read these in advance, so I don't know what they are. So I will have something to say after you guys talk. I I know I haven't read direct, but I think this there's some stuff in here that's more than just your actual plot that there's there's some plot trips. Anyway, so ja Alex, what do you think of that that review?

Alex Grass (22:31)
I've I I I feel AI's vindicated itself.

Steve (22:39)
Now feel completely

free to disagree, and as the voice who wrote

Alex Grass (22:42)
No, I mean

like like listen it's you know I'll get I'll give it this AI recognizes you know like patterns, okay, or at least trends. And I I hate to reduce myself to that, but there's definitely a sense of like in many of the stories, there's a sense of like the intermediary state between, you know, reality and the unreal. And so

Yeah, it's it's foggy as shit, you know? It's it's you're sort of like grasping at at straws trying to pull together what the future looks like. And, you know, this is something that like maybe I'm not super aware of because in y when you're the writer you're done writing it and you know everything that's going on. But I've definitely been on that on the other side where I'm reading a book and I'm just like, Okay, let's see, you know, what's happening here. I don't know, but

Steve (23:37)
So look if I

Jeff Shaw (23:38)
Okay,

I'm going to give it a hard disagree.

Steve (23:38)
if I can I was gonna say, let me before you do that, because I'm gonna do this as from the voice of ignorance in terms of the actual book itself. And I will also disagree and I'll say that as a tool provides the reader and if people did throw it down, that's on them, right? when you have a tool that you use like that, when you bring someone into the middle of a confusing situation.

regardless of the actual story behind it, you've obviously done that for a purpose. You've done this because you want the reader to feel what the character is feeling. Because my guess is this character also is very confused and very, you know, trying to figure out what's happening at this point in time. And so I think if people do throw a book down because it doesn't immediately this is part of our culture because, you know, we are Gen X,

People have so short an attention span these days that they don't want to give something the time it's due, right? So if if you take a minute to get into a story, there's probably a point to it. There's probably a reason for it. So I know Jeff's gonna have some more specific stuff to talk about, but I just want before he went on, 'cause I didn't want to play off anything you said, that seems to me like a really bad way to to to read a book. If you're gonna read the book, you should be digging, you know.

the way the story is being presented. It's like it's like watching a movie by us we just did a Spielberg episode. It's like watching a Spielberg movie and go, I liked everything except the way Spielberg directs. Like, well then why would you watch the movie? It's not like you should ru you should run you want to see their perspective. That's the point. So go ahead. Sorry Jeff.

Alex Grass (25:17)
Yeah. It's like

cur like curb your enthusiasm. Loved it too much Larry David.

Steve (25:22)
Exactly.

Exactly.

Jeff Shaw (25:25)
So my what I was my hard disagree is I did not think it was confusing at all. maybe because I like this genre of post apocalyptic fiction, but also because I was it I I actually sent Steve a text with him like, I I finished Black River Lantern, we're good to go for Monday, and then like I'm gonna start Drek. And I I I read it in a day. It it's amazing.

And and I don't I disagree with the narrative fog because right away you're this this hook is is phenomenal. You have this coroner who has the boogeyman brought in on a gurney. I mean, you got how did the boogeyman get on your gurney? What like I'm sorry, but that setup has me hooked. Do I know how the boogeyman got there? No. Do I know anything about the long war that led to the apocalypse?

Alex Grass (26:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (26:22)
I don't know. I don't know anything. And that's okay. That's part of the point of reading a book is to be confused at the beginning and not as much at the end.

Steve (26:23)
And why is the boogeyman a real person?

Alex Grass (26:26)
Yeah.

Steve (26:28)
Yes.

Alex Grass (26:32)
Yeah,

for sure.

Steve (26:33)
Now

you don't you don't know my family, Alex, but we just had this conversation last week. It's like watching a movie with my mother. Literally it'll fade in and there's a person stabbing another person and she asks like nine questions. She's one of those Yeah, why is he doing that? Who is that? Why is that like you you don't need to know. Watch the movie. That's the point. Read the book. That's the point.

Alex Grass (26:41)
huh.

Who is that? Well the I

You you're just

d you're describing every mother. You're describing everybody. Just who is that? Why are they doing it? Why are they wearing that? You know? It's like d t doesn't someone tell them what they're doing is wrong? Cauld ki you're gonna miss the whole things, you know? But it's save save Q<unk>A for the clothes.

Steve (26:58)
Yes, this is this is probably true.

Yeah.

Yes. awesome. So, you guys ready for number two? Ready, Jeff? All right. I'm not gonna roll another one. I'm not gonna let it be another one. That's a thirteen. This is a knowledge history check for the long war scars. The piecemeal history of how society fell apart. A grounded dystopia. Grass brilliantly handles the backstory.

Jeff Shaw (27:21)
Hard roll for me.

Steve (27:41)
Instead of a massive info dump, the scars of the catastrophic war are revealed naturally through the ruined landscape, changing borders, and the lingering psychological trauma of the survivors.

Jeff Shaw (27:51)
I I agree. I think the long that there is no info dump and I it kind of speaks to that that critical miss where, I don't know what's going on right away. Yeah, 'cause you don't get to find it all out right away. And and you wanna keep reading that that's what I said. Like I I was up all night reading this thing 'cause like, what? How is this? Just one more page, just one more chapter because

Alex Grass (28:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (28:17)
like I I do love this genre post-apocalyptic, and I love when someone can really dig into you know society. there's this there there's this scene because it's the boogeyman and and different people want the body and immediately there's like a war over what to do with this body. And then these three religio three religions have you know you know show up. but they're

They're not what they should be. Like there's Mormons, but they're not really Mormons. Like they got it wrong. They're like, you know, Jesus had these gold plates, he could see the future, but not that great, no one else could see it. And then or Joseph Smith could see it. and and and just like these variations, how things got so twisted and then had they just get it wrong. It's yeah, and what we th you think about like when we dig stuff up from with Egyptian Egyptian hieroglyph.

Alex Grass (28:49)
Yeah.

Steve (28:49)
Ha ha.

Alex Grass (28:58)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (29:13)
Higher growths, we're just making a guess. Who knows? We could be entirely wrong. And so, you know, take someone, and so that's what I like that, you know, for what Alex did in creating this version of a future, it's full of the absurd. So, you know, don't look for like this isn't this isn't like so supposed to be firmly grounded. This is making fun of us, and we gotta be able to laugh at ourselves.

Alex Grass (29:16)
Yeah.

Steve (29:19)
Yes.

Alex Grass (29:19)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (29:42)
And I so I I I thought it was very well done.

Steve (29:45)
So I'm

Alex Grass (29:46)
Y y you you gotta stop. You gotta stop. I'm

Jeff Shaw (29:48)
Okay.

Alex Grass (29:49)
I'm t I'm I'm like turning into beet red. I c I can't. You gotta stop.

Steve (29:53)
So I'm gonna make it worse.

Jeff Shaw (29:52)
Sorry.

Steve (29:54)
So I I I again I haven't had a chance to read Dreck yet, but I will say that I think you handle Black Black River Lantern the same way. Because it starts off in the in in this action and you're like, okay, what's happening? What's going on? And I never felt, and I still haven't at any point in my read through that that it wasn't info dump. I feel like I've been learning and getting to know the characters chapter to chapter.

you know, scene by scene, I feel like you've you've taken your time and and introduced everyone to us and it hasn't been I I sometimes get annoyed when you read or watch anything and it's like the first fifteen minutes is like, you know, and I'm gonna say this, but of course it's Star Wars starts off with an info down. But it's like I don't want that. I don't don't tell me half the story. If you have to tell me half the story, then you should have written another book. Or you should have done another movie, right? And I guess Star Wars eventually did. But

Alex Grass (30:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Steve (30:50)
so I really appreciate that as well. Again from a different perspective from your other novel, but I totally agree. I I don't I wouldn't want to have done a dump of info. I like the way you you s lay stuff up.

Jeff Shaw (31:02)
Yeah, and I think it's h it's I mean, obviously you know better than us, but because you you've published or self published or did you Yeah. So it's

Alex Grass (31:11)
Yeah. I I'm a

indie whole hog, man.

Jeff Shaw (31:15)
All right. So but still, and we can, you know, that's something I didn't want to touch in in our evolution segment, but I think, you know, what what a lot of writers struggle with is not doing the info dump. 'Cause you've got all these ideas, right? And just how do you, you know, lay the breadcrumbs out instead of giving us the whole loaf of bread at the beginning. So

Alex Grass (31:39)
Yeah.

It's interesting. I I have this conversation or some version of this conversation with my wife all the time because, you know, she's she's always like, I wanna I wanna sh she's definitely a serviceable writer, but she's you know, she's a doctor, so she's doing medical writing, you know?

And she's like, I I really wish I could write. And and I said, like the biggest problem and I realize I see it, you know, in her writing too is people don't write the way that they talk or think. And that's how you wanna be writing. Listen, an adorned version of how you wanna be writing, you know, I definitely don't actually speak the way that I write in Drek. That would be pretty amazing. but also sort of like wearying after a while. You'd be like, god

Steve (32:22)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Shaw (32:22)
Ha ha

ha.

Alex Grass (32:28)
You know. Here's here's Mr. Luxicography again, you know. but I think that you know a good story is not an info dump either, you know? In fact I think we all recognize what a bad story is. It's when you're captive at a dinner or at the bar

Steve (32:29)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (32:49)
Or you know, a a at at a a family get together and someone's and someone starts going, Yeah, it was in Chicago. No, it was in Peoria. Well it had to be it had to be in Chicago because because that that was the year that that Betty graduated from Northwestern. But but you know what sh Yeah, exactly. And it and it's just like all like we're just like we've got like the whole back history it's like, okay, but who got the abortion? Jesus, you know?

Steve (33:00)
Yes.

Honey, what year did Betty graduate? Then No

Right. Twenty minutes

later and they still have no idea what you're talking about. all right. So yeah, I think we're gonna keep we're gonna keep going back and forth on this stuff, but in terms of random review, so again, if you've never watched one of our random reviews, please like, subscribe, join us. follow Alex on all social media. Alex, what's your social media? Are you on Instagram or everywhere?

Alex Grass (33:22)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (33:24)
All right.

Alex Grass (33:42)
I'm on Instagram at infernal tramps. I I I mostly use it to to to email people because someone ruined the message function on Goodreads. And I did a little research into it and I'm like, what could this possibly be? It's a dick pic, of course. Someone just just like lit literally on Goodreads. Just just

Jeff Shaw (33:46)
Nice.

Ha ha ha ha ha

Steve (33:59)
God.

On good reads.

Do you know what's insulting

is it wasn't a just a really detailed description of a dick pic. If you're gonna send a dick pic on a site like sh like Goodreads, at least write it out for frick's sake.

Jeff Shaw (34:11)
Yeah, how dare they?

Alex Grass (34:17)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

This is highly offensive, but it's definitely the best three thousand words I've read about a tumescent organ ever.

Jeff Shaw (34:24)
Ha ha

Steve (34:27)
So check Alex out on Infernal Tramps, and on Goodreads, just don't send any dick pics. and check out all the all the the books and we're gonna jump into our next segment 'cause we're gonna we're gonna go back in time.

Alright, so I'm gonna jump into this one first, Jeff. there's one thing I was while I was reading and still am Black River Lantern, it made me think of the movie Something Wicked This Way Comes. And the it's a carnival. I know, but it's like

Jeff Shaw (35:02)
Hmm. The carnival, perhaps?

Steve (35:07)
I don't know if that was an like if that was an inspiration at all or if you just if it just sort of happenstance, but in terms of flashback, that was one of the first horror movies, especially supernatural style horror movies that I remember and it was so intense. and and for years, I think I watched it when I was an early teen, the the phrase by the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes was stuck in my head for decades.

And I it it just really I don't know, it really did something to me and I and made me really interested in this style of story. yeah. It's not a long flashback for me, but that's definitely it. so

Jeff Shaw (35:52)
Alex, what was your first memory?

Alex Grass (35:53)
U

I I'm not sure exactly what the first memory is, but I remember the first I remember when I I saw the movie The Dentist with I think Corbin Burnson. And this is like yeah, so this is this is back in the air, you know,

Steve (36:10)
Goodness.

Alex Grass (36:16)
i our contemporaries will know this, although our the more youthful cohort will not. You used to just watch what was on TV and you had no choice. Y it look like like it it used to be I have spent many, many late nights enjoying many a shampoo info infomercial. I I I but

Steve (36:27)
We say that all the time.

Jeff Shaw (36:27)
Ha ha ha.

Steve (36:40)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (36:43)
There is this movie called The Dentist, there's nothing else on. And you don't stop watching television. That's ridiculous, you know? S so so I watch The Dentist, and this guy is like drilling out, you know, it's a it's a it's a torture film. It's a snuff flick, you know? A and that scared the pants off of me. my god. Because like the idea, I think that this is.

Jeff Shaw (36:48)
Ha ha ha.

Steve (36:49)
Ha

ha

Alex Grass (37:08)
Yeah, it's interesting because this is this would be like the to the exclusion sort of of paranormal horror, but it it th this is something that's so terrifying because it takes the mundane sort of

The requisite part of childhood. You have to go to the dentist, you know? Everybody goes to the dentist and it says, it's all true. Every bad thing you imagine about him, it's true. And he's gonna drill your teeth out and he's gonna laugh. ha ha ha ha ha. And you're gonna go to school, and you're gonna be, and then you know, like your mind builds on it.

Steve (37:30)
Yes.

Yeah.

Alex Grass (37:51)
You're gonna go to school and like not all your teeth are gonna be missing, but you'll be naked too.

Steve (37:59)
That's funny. I d I always do some quick live Googling. It was ninety six, nineteen ninety six. I have not seen that. I I definitely

Alex Grass (38:05)
Yeah. Yeah. So I guess

I would've I would have been eleven.

Steve (38:08)
that's early for a horror movie. Maybe twelve if it was you watched it on TV, right? Maybe a year later.

Alex Grass (38:13)
no.

No, I saw stuff earlier than that. My dad took I just can't remember which ones, but my dad took me to I guess he'd have to like look up the timeline for Alien. Let me see.

Steve (38:24)
Yeah. I'll be honest, you and Jeff

have the same dad then, because he took Jeff to all sorts of movies when he was young too.

Jeff Shaw (38:28)
Ha ha ha.

Not horror though. Like horror and the funny thing is there's plenty of scary things in some of the stuff I watched, but my first horror movie or close to was nineteen eighty four's Firestarter. It would have been fourteen years old. And the reason I finally like accepted like that I was going to watch a horror movie and and be brave is because I I I was a comic book reader and I loved the X-Men. And this looked like

Alex Grass (38:32)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (39:01)
The closest thing I was gonna get to the X-Men, because at that time you didn't think there'd be a good superhero movie. There's plenty of bad ones. Did you think you're gonna get a good one? And like this looked like a great movie and had superpowers. And yeah, there's gonna be some negative consequences and allegedly horror at Stephen King. But I that was my and then I was hooked from there on out. A huge Stephen King fan. and started watching horror movies after that. But that was my entry was Firestarter.

Alex Grass (39:06)
Yeah.

Steve (39:08)
Yeah, God.

Alex Grass (39:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's you know, it's interesting. That's a very good one that I saw very late. I think that the one that I I saw probably earlier was Cujo, you know? And I

Steve (39:44)
yeah.

Jeff Shaw (39:44)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (39:45)
I don't know why this is the case, but I've heard this from other people too, that like the first it was the first movie, but also the first Stephen King book that they read, Kujo. And I th I wonder why that is. Like maybe there's some sort of exception like maybe it's allowed in school libraries because there's no religious implications in it, right?

Jeff Shaw (39:55)
Yeah.

Steve (40:04)
maybe.

It's funny, it's of all the Stephen King that I have read, Cujo is not one that I've actually read.

Jeff Shaw (40:06)
Good.

Alex Grass (40:12)
Yeah, it

it's like you know, it's kind of what you expect, you know. There's like like a person who isn't a terrible person, but commits infidelity and sort of like ruins their life doing it and then and then j just sort of like by happenstance

You know, a seedling of evil is planted by via via pathogen into this dog. I mean but but like not supernatural evil, just like b you know, gets bit on the nose.

Steve (40:44)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (40:45)
It's so funny, I just looked up Cujo came out in eighty three, one year before Firestarter. That was my entry. So that was one year too late for Cujo.

Steve (40:52)
Ha.

Alex Grass (40:52)
Yeah,

yeah. I mean

Jeff Shaw (40:55)
But hey, take us to court, Steve.

Steve (40:57)
I think it's time.

Jeff Shaw (41:07)
Alright, geek court. The case does horror need humor or does comedy kill the scare? Arguing for that comedy disarms you so that horror lands harder, or at least that horror and comedy can mix will be Alex at the very least. I don't know if Steve you also want to step in. And arguing against that jokes break the tension and leave the reader off the hook.

So I will argue against and arguing for that comedy belongs in horror. Alex, do you wanna take it?

Alex Grass (41:47)
Absolutely. Comedy b and horror are actually to a certain degree indistinguishable in that the way that they affect the consumer depends on how close you are to a tragedy. there's there's no shortage of you know there's no shortage of jokes about, for instance,

child getting locked inside of a refrigerator in the middle of a of a junkyard. But surely the first time that would have happened, it would have been so terrifying that it it it would have been completely forbidden. It would have been very taboo to talk about it. Now the other thing is that, you know, like what's funny and what's terrifying changes along with, you know, like a culture's borase. So you might have, you know, something like

Th something that's really horrifying a hundred and fifty years ago would be the idea of being a woman unmarried at thirty five. It would be like it'd have genuine

ch genuinely bad implications for for your life and for the reputation of your family, which you know it's it's very different times. So of course, you know, like the name of the family was essentially your social capital in the world. And it dictated to a degree what you could do economically. But but now we see in film we make fun of the stepmothers or or the overbearing mothers who think

That their daughters need to get married immediately. So it's sort of like the you know, Chris Rock had I I don't know if this is apocryphal. I think I remember him saying this, but he says, you know, comedy rots, right? Well, comedy rots so much that it could turn into horror, and and horror can eventually stagnate by virtue of

distance from the tragedy that it's based on that it could become comedy. You know? The fame the the ve the best example of this is I think I forget the exact number, but South Park said, it's been 23.6 years. AIDS is finally funny.

Steve (44:11)
Yeah. Yeah, it's so I I might jump to both sides just to play devil's advocate, but I'm gonna agree with you on this. I'm I don't know if you know this, I'm also a stand up. So the difference between comedy and horror is a difference in degree. It's not a difference in in in fact. Right. So the old

I I mean the oldest joke in the book or the oldest imagery of comedy of someone slipping on a banana peel and falling, is the the epitome of the humor and at the same time the tragedy of someone falling. And it's not horror, but it is the beginning of that scale of as you just said, you get to a point where we're trying to decide when when there's cat. you're you're trying you know, the

The decision is when does when does the humor become horror? And that's the difference in degree. And I know the joke you were talking about with the the the refrigerator. but I will say too, in the actual use, like in a horror movie or in a horror story, when you can break some tension with humor, right? They do live along the same continuum.

Alex Grass (45:16)
Yeah.

Steve (45:31)
But I think those are perfect pressure release valves, right? If you use them properly, then the humor doesn't take away from the horror. It accentuates it because it's like any good thing, right? You don't know how good something is until you know how bad it can be. Then you see the the level of difference. When you see that moment of humor in the middle of gore, you go, all right, wait, this is really that much worse than we because you, you know, when you in any situation

When you're reading about it or you're watching it and it's just evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, you sort of s not become desensitized, but you get used to it. And then then y it's up to you as the author to he either keep upping your game or throw some pressure release on us. And you often do both, right? So you you you have a a bigger end than you would have at the beginning. The gore or the horror factors aren't gonna be the same, but the pressure release in the middle is is that that waveform of storytelling where you you take it up and you bring it back down.

Alex Grass (46:08)
Yeah.

Steve (46:30)
And I think humor does that better than almost anything else.

Alex Grass (46:33)
And I just want to add one thing. Just add one thing. And it's it's that it also it you know good art is art that has an elemental truth to it and auth authenticity. And in real life, terrible, terrible things are often complemented with with by

Jeff Shaw (46:36)
Okay.

Alex Grass (46:57)
very very funny or absur absurd situations. And so like this is one, you know, like you know, yeah I there's this awful case. I don't know if you guys ever heard of it, but this woman named Teresa Stouk and she she killed her stepson, right? And I'm watching the trial and it's just like it's what you would expect. It's child death. It's terrible. But then they bring on these interviews and her angle

Steve (47:02)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Grass (47:27)
Teresa Stout's angle is that she has multiple personality disorder. And you see all these interviews, and she's terrible. She's she's she's the worst fake dissociative identity disorder poser ever. And it's hilarious. And that's what life is like.

Steve (47:34)
Yeah.

Yes. A hundred percent.

Jeff Shaw (47:50)
all right. So I know I'm taking against. And I also want to say the difficulty I had in finding the evidence that you the the the director, the writer doesn't need to take their foot off the gas. It can be horror from beginning to end without relent. There's not too many I was thinking, silence of the lambs. Then I realized there's the guy's like dancing and he's got his his penis tucked.

Alex Grass (48:18)
There's a s there's a

lot of funny stuff. Fuck me so hard.

Jeff Shaw (48:19)
I'd fuck me. And then the fava beans. And I'm like,

Steve (48:19)
Yeah. Right.

Jeff Shaw (48:24)
those are kind of funny. And then but I do have two bits of evidence. And I and these movies are s two of the scariest movies I've seen. And they're so disturbing. And there's n I cannot remember anything funny about either hereditary or mid summer. And those movies are just almost relentlessly dark, depressing.

And horrifying without without release and without a moment at the end where you're like, we have some redemption. I I know some people think Midsummer does, but man, it's those are tough. And so as I say that, I I recognize, yes, you can have horror without that, but I don't want to watch those movies again. I was scared. And they were incredible movies, but I will rewatch Silence of the Lambs and other movies.

That give me just a little bit of a break. So

Alex Grass (49:19)
Yeah.

It it it it's interesting. Like the ba you know, creating I think good horror is like it's you know how they say, you know, like bake baking is chemistry and cooking is art or w whatever they say. You know, it it it's all about the proportion that you have, you know? Because i if you if you take the piss at everything, you know, then then you don't have a horror movie. what you have is sort of just like, you know

Steve (49:33)
Mm-hmm.

You have scary movie.

Alex Grass (49:49)
Yeah, you you're scared more and like listen, that has its place. You know? That has its place. But there are too many people who get too close to that, you know, while while while still trying to like maintain the facade of of being an a auteur, you know. And it's like, listen, you love it or you don't, you know? I i i you can't take the piss out of everything. But you can try.

Steve (50:08)
Mm-hmm.

So

Jeff Shaw (50:11)
Nice.

Steve (50:12)
you can try. So what do you guys think?

do you agree that hor humor belongs in horror, like Alex and I believe it? Or do you disagree with Jeff? Do you guess you're just gonna give up? Jeff's just gonna give up. Yes, you have proud to lose most of these.

Jeff Shaw (50:23)
And you I'm I'm actually surrendering on this one. I don't I I I'm proud of my record in in these geek courts in this podcast. I am not happy with my delivery on this one.

Alex Grass (50:26)
Ha ha ha.

Sometimes

listen, I I I clerked at the p at the public defenders, you know what they say? Sometimes you just got a dog of a case, you know?

Jeff Shaw (50:39)
Ha ha.

Steve (50:45)
Yes. And that

Jeff Shaw (50:46)
And

I

Steve (50:46)
is

Jeff Shaw (50:47)
did. And I did.

Steve (50:47)
absolutely what Jeff had. That was a dog. So tell us why you agree with all of us that humor belongs in in humor. original geek podcast at gmail dot com and check us out. But right now we're gonna talk some evolution.

Jeff Shaw (50:52)
Ha ha ha

Alex Grass (50:53)
Ha ha ha

Steve (51:08)
Right.

Jeff Shaw (51:08)
We should probably

make this one short. I had an idea and and hopefully for evolution this will work. when I I one I did teach film studies, I also taught creative writing. And one thing I told my students, without any true experience myself, but the evolution of getting something published, what I told them is there at a time when it's much easier to get a to publish yourself, to get your work out there. How like it was

Was I saying accurate? Is do you f do you think it has changed over the years to be a published, you know, author, or is it about the same, just a different medium?

Alex Grass (51:49)
no, a hundred percent. I think l that was very good advice. You know, it's the it's the you have to attend to your art with with more discernment as the artist yourself though. That's the thing. You know, so like the gatekeepers, you know, they're not the same that they are, right? There isn't a monolith in media, there isn't a monolith in any kind of media.

you no longer have newspapers where they can decide whether or not to let the United States know that FDR can't walk, you know. You you no longer have three major networks that that frame the the way that the national n news is give delivered into people's homes. But, you know

And and and let me say this and also in in publishing, you know, i it's it's not just in publishing, but it's in film. The access is tremendous. It's it it really is like a renaissance the you that if someone has a good enough idea and they can execute it well, there is a way to get it out there and people will respond. That in itself is incredible, you know? Because there was nothing close to that when when we were young. There was nothing like that.

Steve (52:58)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Grass (53:06)
Like you know, like I said earlier, you watched what was on TV. That was it. That's that you

Steve (53:11)
Yeah. Yeah, and if

Jeff Shaw (53:11)
Yeah.

Steve (53:14)
if you were an author twenty years ago, maybe even as recently as ten years ago, you had no choice but to go to a publishing company. You weren't getting on a physical bookshelf or into anybody's hands before the advent of like a Kindle or the Nook. there was online blogging and reading and people were writing and stuff online, but I don't actually haven't looked it up. I'll have to check the date on when the first e readers came out, but when

when it became possible for someone to say, because I think even at the beginning of both of those devices, which really I think started that proliferate prolifer I can't say the word proliferation of the ability for folks to get media, same time when YouTube was allowing people to do video content, these these platforms were allowing people to get out their their written content. But I think even at the start, like Nook and Bar and and Kindle

Jeff Shaw (53:56)
Hmm.

Steve (54:06)
were just repurposing already printed material, right? They took books that were already in print and digitized them so people could read them. And it wasn't until some years later that people like yourself were had the opportunity to say, I have something I want to say and I think people will like it. And it turns out, yes, absolutely people will. And it gave you that opportunity. in that process, like I'm very interested in myself, like, what do you think

Like if you had to give someone advice about like which platforms to use or how to go about, like what what would you say to someone who was in your shoes, I think you it was twenty twenty your first novel came out, like seven years ago? What would you say to someone who was where you were seven years ago with a with a great story but like no clue what to do with it?

Alex Grass (54:49)
That sounds right.

Take the t listen, anything is take the time to do the research to really find out. There's gonna be good information out there, there's gonna be bad information out there. But there is so much that you can learn from out there.

That you can figure it out. You know, I'm not like I don't I didn't know anything about publishing when I started, but I figured out to some degree how to do marketing. And, you know, get used to doing things you don't like because it it's j it's a different version of the stuff you didn't like you d wouldn't want to do 30 years ago that the publishing houses would have you do, you know? like listen, it's like

There are some great experiences like this, but there's also like agonizing experiences where you like you go in a podcast like they're not interested, you're filling a slot, you know. and Yeah Yeah.

Steve (55:51)
We heard one of those.

Jeff Shaw (55:52)
I know. So, Alexander,

Steve (55:55)
Let me apologize

wait. Let me apologize to you for them, 'cause they should have.

Jeff Shaw (55:56)
do you write romance?

Alex Grass (56:03)
But you know you take it as it comes. I would say that like it is there is more access than ever. The only problem with that is that you have to work two times, five times, ten times, fifty times as hard to make sure you're putting out something

that you you say, you know, basically you're the you're the kid who shows up at the basketball court while Michael Jordan's there and you'll say like, I'll I'll play a game of one on one. Let's do it, you know? And you don't have to win, but you ha you wanna not embarrass yourself, you know? And and so sometimes when I read you know, like I've read self published books and I've just been like, you know

Yeah, like I you almost resent them. You're like, you know, geez, have some pride. Go through the process. Or or don't bother. Not everyone's supposed to be a writer. It's okay, you know?

Steve (57:02)
Yeah,

the the the downside and I think is where you're heading is there's so much noise. So many people can now self publish. It's hard to know where's the good stuff. So how do you find that? digging through the noise to make sure that your gems can be found.

Alex Grass (57:19)
No, it's hard. It's hard. It's really hard. You know, you you you do some legwork. you find like you contact readers and you know, you say, like, are you interested in reading this book? You contact critics, you you know, get like you have r reputable p outlets review your work if you can and you know,

but more important than anything, you try and write something, you know, like you y you you put the effort into the work. The f all the bulk of the effort has to be into into the writing. Just like you know, like you you can do you can do a marketing blitz all you want, you know, you could have the Disney marketing machine behind you, but if the movie's not good, people aren't gonna watch it, you know? You you you cannot sell

people on I didn't think it was that bad, but you know it's a good example, you know, Cap yeah, the the Captain Marvel sequel, you know? Yeah, yeah. I I liked it, but like it it's an example where like where like the there's older there's other there's other ones that did sell themselves, you know, like the first Iron Man, right? Like there sometimes you you have to work

Jeff Shaw (58:21)
Yeah, I th yeah. I thought it was good.

Steve (58:22)
The marvels, yeah.

Jeff Shaw (58:32)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah.

Steve (58:33)
Yes.

Alex Grass (58:37)
on the product itself. That's that's the best advice I can give. Because it you know, maybe you'll have worse luck than some people. Maybe it'll take, you know, 20 years instead of five. you know, maybe people won't get it at first, because that happens, you know? That happens. And and you know what? Maybe it's as bad as you'll die before people like your work. You know? But but if you believe in it, you know, I'm not gonna say be okay with it, but you know, like accept it.

Yeah it it thi this is this is how it works. Y you

Steve (59:12)
Yeah. I'll say

that's the same sentiment that you're talking about with writing I found for for performing and doing stand up because it's a very subjective medium and people either love it or they hate it. And my jokes aren't always for everybody. I I perform pretty well, but if someone doesn't like my material, it's n you have to be you have to be proud of what you're doing.

I have to be proud of what I'm producing. And I think that's kind of what you're saying. You have to be proud of what you did. And if you can't put in the work to be proud of what you produced, no amount, and I know a lot of stand-ups who are amazing at marketing and just not good on stage. And I think that's the only parallel I can draw. I do, we are just running a little long in the tooth on this. I know Jeff has a little evolution he wants to talk about. I will say I think I think you hit the rant.

Alex Grass (59:49)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (1:00:00)
Not evolution.

Steve (1:00:04)
part of our show on the n you hit the nail on the head. I I don't think we need to do a special rant section because that what you said is perfect.

Jeff Shaw (1:00:05)
That's what was gonna say. I think we can do Yes. Right. Yes.

This happens just so you know, Alex, you played right into our trap. Our evolution, for whatever reason, always ends with a rant. A message to the audience, to the next generation, to whoever. So well done. Nicely done.

Steve (1:00:21)
Every time. Always.

Alex Grass (1:00:28)
A And get off my lawn.

Steve (1:00:31)
Yes.

So we're gonna we're gonna jump into our final segment here. We're gonna do critical hits and epic fails.

Jeff Shaw (1:00:44)
All right. My critical hit is actually of one of your quotes. And there there was actually quite a few that I that I I I saved. But this one, this is from Drek. And you know, hopefully some people will see you know why I enjoyed it so much, because of it's that commentary on our real society. I think that's what horror at its peak does. and so this is from Drek. It isn't that all politicians are evil, that's all too simple.

Many, and maybe at some very special time, a majority of them, might even have been good if moral luck had aligned their fates with the goodness of their time. The price of admission to this carnival of carnards is one's integrity, or less hysterically, one's dignity. But many willingly surrender their dignity. It's not an unreasonable calculus. Dignity matters only for those who put a premium on it. It can't be bought.

And politicians are very much in the business of what can be bought. It's so true. So true. So course you also wrote there was another line in in if you you know, I assumed you created I've never seen it elsewhere, from Black River Lantern, which was the the the couple was drinking some wine and

Alex Grass (1:01:53)
I can't believe I wrote that!

Steve (1:01:55)
I would

Jeff Shaw (1:02:11)
we were having some sour grapes for a pair of sour grapes. And the juice of some sour grapes for a pair of sour grapes. I thought that was good.

Alex Grass (1:02:14)
Yeah.

Steve (1:02:19)
Yeah, I I

Alex Grass (1:02:19)
I don't remember that one.

Jeff Shaw (1:02:22)
Yeah, it's the it's Doctor Chain. He's sa he's saying that to Lexi. She asks for a glass of wine and he's like, You want half glass? 'Cause she's pregnant. full glass, okay.

Alex Grass (1:02:26)
yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Steve (1:02:32)
All right, now you guys are throwing spoilers at me 'cause I'm not

there in the book yet. But that's so that's my epic fail is me that I didn't get a chance to read the whole book. I have been enjoying it. unfortunately life is life. but and and honestly I said it a little bit before. the way you structure the story, the chap the the the the evolution from character to character, the story grows.

I I love the way you pace everything. I'll be honest with you. When you reached out, we were happy to have you on. We were excited because you're the first person to reach out to us and say, Hey, we I'd love to do your show. And we were excited. And then honestly, there was a moment where I was like, right, is this gonna be we we were so so I am so happy to say you have more than lived up to the hype.

Jeff Shaw (1:03:22)
We shot probably should have read something of his first.

Steve (1:03:32)
So my hit is thank you for being here. Thank you for reaching out. And thank you for just being an amazing writer. Because honestly, this could have gone sideways and we might have called you Alexander and asked you about romance, but but I'm so happy that we didn't have to. So that's my hit.

Alex Grass (1:03:44)
Yeah.

my god.

I love this show, I love you guys. I do. I I just do.

Steve (1:03:52)
Yeah.

Jeff Shaw (1:03:53)
Thank you, Alex.

Steve (1:03:55)
So before we jump off, Alex, one more time, let everybody know where they can find you. Let's talk about the new release.

Alex Grass (1:04:02)
absolutely. You could find everything you need to know related to my new short story collection, Infernaltramps, at Infernaltramps.com. You could find me on Instagram at Infernaltramps. You could find the new book on Amazon, presented by the great overlord Bezos.

Steve (1:04:24)
Yeah.

Alex Grass (1:04:26)
by just typing in Infernal Tramps or my name, Alex Grass. I'm gonna say it for the old man 'cause he used to say this when answering phones. Grass like the green grass. And everything else is I don't know, just like sort of

riding in the in the interstices of the ether, otherwise you know, the the particulate of the digital trail I've left behind. But I'll I'll say this, infernaltramps.com is gonna be a good bet for you out there who are interested.

Steve (1:05:02)
There

you go. So also check out all of the rest of the works that we've been talking about. Check him out on Goodreads. go on Amazon, read the books, rate them, review them, do the same on Goodreads. I know that helps with everybody's getting the word out about more getting more readers. and Jeff, sorry, I seemed to I didn't mean to cut you off.

Jeff Shaw (1:05:04)
Awesome.

no, I gave Drek five stars on Amazon, so Bezos, pay the man, pay the man, you can afford it.

Alex Grass (1:05:31)
Yeah.

Steve (1:05:32)
Perfect. Pay the man.

All right. So thanks for joining us again, Alex. if you guys are out there, please you know, like, subscribe, check us out, check out all Alex's stuff, and we'll see you guys next time.

01:45 Basement Brief
04:03 Artist Alley
18:26 Random Review: Drek
34:40 Geek Flashback
41:06 Geek Court
51:08 Geek Evolution
01:00:38 Critical Hits and Epic Fails